Guidance on Deploying Handhelds to work with Servoy?

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Guidance on Deploying Handhelds to work with Servoy?

Postby Kahuna » Fri May 01, 2009 4:26 pm

Having almost completed our app port to Servoy, I'm now looking at data collecting using handhelds, rather than paper and transcription.

I'd love feedback from anyone with experience in this area. Heres what I am after:

1. Handhelds need to be intrinsically safe for working in hazardous environments.
2. They need to be rugged as the Survey Engineers will be climbing around on Oil & Gas process facilities.
3. The data collected should be auto synced regularly, bi-directionally (some data will be used as library / combo feed for the data collection teams).
4. The sites may be out in the desert and we'll need to develop a local wi-fi network with a laptop to do the syncing.
5. Laptop will sync with the server at some point.

A lot of things I'm not sure of at this point:

a. What sort of development environment should I be looking at for the creation of the handheld collection forms (is there some Servoy tools available ala iPhone type tools - or is MS Win the best direction)?
b. What Db should we be thinking about for the Handhelds (I'm thinking MSSQL Compact might be the only option and if so then a. will probably be Visual Studio :shock: :cry: :cry: I'd need to go on suicide watch if that happens LOL)?
c. Is there technology available for syncing directly with Servoy from a handheld?
d. Is there any resource easily available to guide on this sort of deployment.
e. Have any of you guy's been through this loop already?
f. Is there any way I can keep all of this development within the Servoy loop?
g. Any experience on specific handheld devices?

Any feedback would be welcome - obviously I'm going to do some in depth research but our Servoyians have such diverse experience that I figured I might just save from re-inventing the wheel by asking here first!

Cheers
(Servoy Version: 6.0.7 Win XP / 7 - SQL Server 2008 R2)
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Re: Guidance on Deploying Handhelds to work with Servoy?

Postby IT2Be » Fri May 01, 2009 6:34 pm

When you want background processing the iPhone is not your thing. It will do push with 3.0 but no background stuff. DB used by default is SQLite.
BlackBerry will do background processing and does it well.
WIndows Mobile, dunno anything about that.
Palm comes with a new os that looks promising but I have no info about that yet either.
Google android will do background processing as well.

But why don't you create a web interface and let them connect with the server direct? That way you will be able to do all development with Servoy.
Otherwise pick your choice (and maybe an external developer, I know by experience from iPhone and BlackBerry how hard it is to get this going).
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Re: Guidance on Deploying Handhelds to work with Servoy?

Postby Kahuna » Fri May 01, 2009 7:35 pm

IT2Be wrote:When you want background processing the iPhone is not your thing. It will do push with 3.0 but no background stuff. DB used by default is SQLite.
BlackBerry will do background processing and does it well.
WIndows Mobile, dunno anything about that.
Palm comes with a new os that looks promising but I have no info about that yet either.
Google android will do background processing as well.

But why don't you create a web interface and let them connect with the server direct? That way you will be able to do all development with Servoy.
Otherwise pick your choice (and maybe an external developer, I know by experience from iPhone and BlackBerry how hard it is to get this going).


I think you missed the point Marcel - this is not an app for a phone I just used the iPhone as an example as I know Servoy has built a model for it - it needs a robust Intrinsically safe PDA, probably HP or one of those. In an explosive atmosphere its not possible to have wi-fi or even GPRS connections - it just too dangerous. So a web interface with a server is not an option.

I've built apps in the past on Dell Axiom handhelds with Mobile Access Db and using active sync, but this needs to be more robust - active sync is a little too 'flaky' for this app I think. I'm thinking that VS is the only real alternative - but hoping for some feedback from those with experience of such matters.
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Re: Guidance on Deploying Handhelds to work with Servoy?

Postby IT2Be » Fri May 01, 2009 9:24 pm

I think you missed the point Marcel
I think so too :)
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Re: Guidance on Deploying Handhelds to work with Servoy?

Postby Kahuna » Fri May 01, 2009 11:03 pm

IT2Be wrote:
I think you missed the point Marcel
I think so too :)


But it's lovely to chat my friend :D
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Re: Guidance on Deploying Handhelds to work with Servoy?

Postby Jan Aleman » Sat May 02, 2009 2:20 pm

I have some direct and indirect experience in this area and have some questions:

- What is the device mainly going to be used for?
- What is the maximum acceptable size and weight?
- What type of autonomy are you looking at?
- What type of data input? Intensive? alpha? just numbers? just selecting buttons on touchscreen?
- What type of data retrieval? Small? Large? Complex?
- How often to you need to sync up and down? How much information is involved in those syncs?
- How many devices do you need?
- Budget restrictions?
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Re: Guidance on Deploying Handhelds to work with Servoy?

Postby Kahuna » Sat May 02, 2009 3:30 pm

Jan Aleman wrote:I have some direct and indirect experience in this area and have some questions:

- What is the device mainly going to be used for?
- What is the maximum acceptable size and weight?
- What type of autonomy are you looking at?
- What type of data input? Intensive? alpha? just numbers? just selecting buttons on touchscreen?
- What type of data retrieval? Small? Large? Complex?
- How often to you need to sync up and down? How much information is involved in those syncs?
- How many devices do you need?
- Budget restrictions?


Hi Jan - I'll try and answer those points in order:

- What is the device mainly going to be used for?
On Site data entry. Survey Engineers doing visual inspections, and recording that data.

- What is the maximum acceptable size and weight?
They currently use a Clipboard paper collection method but since they need to handle tape measures and 2m measuring sticks it needs to be single hand held, and easily carried all day. So a larger PDA would probably be max size.

- What type of autonomy are you looking at?
I assume by that you mean autonomy of syncing etc? It would be good if we could have a device sync with just 'one command' from the Engineer, but they are bright guys in the main, and some training on the sync process would not be a challenge.

- What type of data input? Intensive? alpha? just numbers? just selecting buttons on touchscreen?
Check Boxes, Radio Buttons, short Drop Downs (6 to 10 elements) will make up 75 - 80% of the data collected, but there are several fields that need written entries with up to 250 characters. I envisage with a small PDA there will be 5-6 screens to enter data into.

- What type of data retrieval? Small? Large? Complex?
Engineers will obviously need to move around in the data collected, next - previous records etc. Also search on some fields for editing etc. There will be probably 8 fields that will need to be based on a Drop Down from a table on the main Db - used as libraries and those could have up to 5k records. I suspect a write ahead type field would be better there!

- How often to you need to sync up and down? How much information is involved in those syncs?
Typically we'd sync daily but its unlikely we we'll get devices that have a 12 hour battery life, so its probable we'll sync 2 - 3 times a day, and recharge then too. The syncs will have very little data - possibly between 600KB and 1200KB per device per day - so with 3 syncs per day thats 200 to 600KB at a time.

- How many devices do you need?
Currently we don't know - we need to get some out there and tested, and we don't know if we should be going for something with a keyboard or an on screen keyboard? If we can prove the technology we'll likely be looking at 15 to 20 initially. Remembering these need to be Intrinsically Safe or we wont get to deploy them on site. They are intended to be used for initial data collections but I'm beginning to realise that the technology might well be something the Clients will want for their on-site Inspection personnel during day to day activities (the use would be reversed then of course so I don't want to cloud this main issue with that possibility).

- Budget restrictions?
Again I don't know what to expect. I've seen Intrinsically Safe units for as little as £1500 and up to £4500. Most of these have other devices such as bar code readers etc that I don't need. Though at some future date we will be adding a GPS reference to all the data collected (thats a future enhancement of course) so if they have a GPS receiver thats good but not essential right now! From a development view point I would have thought (once we understand the best direction for development) we could get the forms and functionality running in a couple of weeks.

Appreciate your feedback Jan - perhaps you can steer me based on this info?
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Re: Guidance on Deploying Handhelds to work with Servoy?

Postby Jan Aleman » Sat May 02, 2009 4:02 pm

Main reason why I asked so many questions is to find out whether you should go Windows Mobile or Tablet PC. From your answers I'd say a tablet pc should be high on your list:

- Available in safe versions eg http://www.panasonic.com/business/tough ... etails.asp
- Price is similar or even lower than rugged Win-Mo devices
- Straightforward programming (just run Servoy on it, sync with Mobilink)
- Reuse of existing app-code
- Future compatible: standard intel technology
- Ethernet and wifi already built-in
- When connected to back-office possibility to run other servoy apps
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Re: Guidance on Deploying Handhelds to work with Servoy?

Postby Kahuna » Sat May 02, 2009 4:29 pm

Jan Aleman wrote:Main reason why I asked so many questions is to find out whether you should go Windows Mobile or Tablet PC. From your answers I'd say a tablet pc should be high on your list:

- Available in safe versions eg http://www.panasonic.com/business/tough ... etails.asp
- Price is similar or even lower than rugged Win-Mo devices
- Straightforward programming (just run Servoy on it, sync with Mobilink)
- Reuse of existing app-code
- Future compatible: standard intel technology
- Ethernet and wifi already built-in
- When connected to back-office possibility to run other servoy apps


Great Feedback thanks Jan.

EDITED*** :oops:
The one you linked too is superb - though unfortunately is not Intrinsically Safe so not an option - but you've really set me thinking here - If there are any IS devices that will run a full version of Windows then its would be much simpler to simply saw off part of our app and let the Engineers have a much easier to use set of functionality!
Looks like a certified option is available for this device! Sorry Jan - jumping the gun as we say in blighty... :D

I suspect something lighter than a tablet will be necessary - but the Pan U1 would be an idea size and usability form factor.

Thanks Jan - you're a star!
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Re: Guidance on Deploying Handhelds to work with Servoy?

Postby Jan Aleman » Sat May 02, 2009 4:33 pm

If I read correctly there are different degrees of 'Intrinsically safe' and the Panasonic complies to one of them. If you click on Solutions and the Oil and Gas they say:

Toughbook computers aren’t just durable. They’re safe. Certified UL 1604 ClassI, Division 2, they won’t emit dangerous sparks in such a hazardous work environment, allowing workers to focus on the job at hand
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Re: Guidance on Deploying Handhelds to work with Servoy?

Postby Kahuna » Sat May 02, 2009 5:06 pm

Jan Aleman wrote:If I read correctly there are different degrees of 'Intrinsically safe' and the Panasonic complies to one of them. If you click on Solutions and the Oil and Gas they say:

Toughbook computers aren’t just durable. They’re safe. Certified UL 1604 ClassI, Division 2, they won’t emit dangerous sparks in such a hazardous work environment, allowing workers to focus on the job at hand


Thats right Jan - exactly what we are looking for - and the prices look pretty good in UK, though I've yet to check what the UL 1604 option will hike it too.

Thanks for the direction - I think this is definately a good one - and I wont even have to go back to Visual Studio :shock: :twisted: :D
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Re: Guidance on Deploying Handhelds to work with Servoy?

Postby kazar » Fri Jul 03, 2009 4:38 pm

The project you are describing sounds fascinating Ian.

I hope to see a nice success story on the Servoy site some day soon!

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