Servoy 2019.06

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Re: Servoy 2019.06

Postby ROCLASI » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:46 pm

jcompagner wrote:Having a java installed on the system, is more and more a problem
We have a lot of problems of new customers that where struggling with this..
Or that they have a 32 bit java installed then nothing works....


The installer could check for this, no? If yes, then it should not be an issue. Just warn that they need to install 64-bit Java or the bundled JVM.

jcompagner wrote:So now we are fully in control. we even update java for you through a Servoy update.. (if java 13 is out we will just update it)

Also if I still use 2019.xx 3 years later?

jcompagner wrote:For the database we yes install now also basic postgresql, but only by default the binary, you have then the choice after unzip and run it the first time, do you really want to init the database ? (yes, yes with sample, or never)
For a first time user this is way easier
For existing stuff (that do download a new installer) this is way way faster, its just unzip and run, Yes OSX is a a bit annoying that you have to run the firstuse.command, but this is only OSX

I wouldn't consider this easier for a first time user. Nothing is easier than hitting Next in an installer and let it take care of any setups.
I believe there is already a post on the forum about PostgreSQL not running in 2019.06. I bet that it is because they weren't aware of the need to run a script first. In other words not a good experience (and an unnecessary support call)

Also there are a lot of developers (like me) that have (for various reasons) multiple versions of Developer installed on their system. So 'check for updates' is not an option then.
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Re: Servoy 2019.06

Postby jcompagner » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:36 pm

you shouldn't use 2019.03 3 years later, very very bad idea
We have now LTS (1 year) or "latest" releases quarterly, you should move, just like the chrome browser, just kind of like they want now with java (be on an LTS or be on the latest)

But even if you keep one release for 3 years, that is not really a problem, it is working fine with that java version, it is only used for our developer, and its only running our developer, so security wise there is not a problem (its not integrated in your os)

I agree it is very annoying if you use the default system "unpacker" of OSX that even if you say "yes i know it is downloaded i allow it' it is STILL in a sandbox (if you would unpack with a 3th party tool it is not a problem)
but yeah Apple makes all stuff difficult, that is just a fact of live.
I like to solve it to not give you a .gz.tar file but a DMG with a signed application, then it is just drag drop (which i think most osx users are used to)
but it is very hard to make that in a build street that is running on linux or windows. You really need to have a mac for that to be able to do that (there is a lot of questions for this on the internet...)
But maybe in the future i can sole this by having some kind of osx servers in the cloud where i can send over the current tar.gz file and i get back a signed dmg container...

But on windows or linux it is really straight forward, download, unzip, run
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Re: Servoy 2019.06

Postby goldcougar » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:05 am

Several problems here.

1. Had a new customer (prior FoxPro user), and had to walk him through Servoy install today. He naturally unzipped it into a temp folder, which he normally deletes at regular intervals. He had no idea what to do with the zip. There isn't a ReadMe.txt in there, so you are just expected to know to go into Developer folder and click on Servoy.exe. He then thought when he ran the servoy.exe in the developer folder that it did the install on his PC. I had to explain that the zip was the install. So then he wanted to drop it in his C:\Program Files and is hoping for a start menu to show up. It was confusing to him. One bright side is he didn't have java installed, so the bundle was convenient. But really, the installers at adoptopenjdk.net are pretty good now, so that really isn't helping much. I think this will just start a new problem of people downloading and accidentally deleting their entire Servoy installs.

2. It screws my docker builds. The URL to get the exact build and install the jar was all automated. It also downloads shit that I never needed before. I don't want the developer folder (with java binaries) on my docker app server installs. Yes the jar is bigger, but the base image doesn't get re-built that often.

At least include the jar for those that want it. Don't link to it on the download page if you wish, but just put it in the wiki somewhere so we know what the URL structure is to get it.
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Re: Servoy 2019.06

Postby jcompagner » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:54 am

yes we should add a readme.txt into the root of our installs
Thats a good suggestion (to explain what this unzip really is, wat they should be starting, and that they can create a short cut to it?)
I guess this is a bit different based on windows or osx (the wording)

That we have java inside it now will not change no matter what "installer" you will take, this is part of our product and eclipse builds it as 1 big package (that we then make special installers/zips for)
To change that would mean really having 2 different kind of products and doing quite a big build 2 times, it is really integrated into one thing.
(thats why we can also update it through our update site)

I personally don't get how this affects docker installs. what is inside a docker? I would say you use docker to make deployment sites where you run the your deployed solution in for testing/staging or production?

You don't run the developer from a docker right? I would think that the dockers that you create you get from a WAR export from a developer (ui or command line) and then include java/tomcat/war inside it..
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Re: Servoy 2019.06

Postby goldcougar » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:10 pm

jcompagner wrote:You don't run the developer from a docker right? I would think that the dockers that you create you get from a WAR export from a developer (ui or command line) and then include java/tomcat/war inside it..

Yes, we do. Who manually generates WAR files anymore? :)

We have 2 different docker images. Here is an example of our common setup...

1. When we commit, there is a hook in git/svn which sees the code change, then spins up a docker image of Servoy developer. The docker image will run the unit tests, and if successful, builds the WAR and uploads it somewhere (like S3)

2. Separate docker images run the Servoy servers. They look for a WAR file at some location (like on S3), which are built from step 1, and deploys those.


So, now with this change, all that breaks. I need to have some switch based on which version since <=8.x are jar installers, and newer ones are zips. I also loose the ability to just install the application server, since the zip has both, but I guess I can just delete that. Also, we don't know the URL structure yet to get specific builds. We need to be able to link our docker builds to a specific URL to get the ZIP for a specific build number, and currently we can't do that (but we could before when they were jar installers).
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Re: Servoy 2019.06

Postby jcompagner » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:59 pm

yes if you make a docker purely for the developer to use the command line tools, then those could now use the one based on the zip (which would be way quicker to use if you ask me)

But for use the application server is already in "slumber" mode. Thats not an installation option that is useful anymore for anything going forward.. (you can't use it for the ngclient)
So yes for <1> a headless developer in a docker you will still need to generate it, but for <2> thats not really useful

and i don't full get it the specific jars for the specific builds is not changed.. thats the same for quite some time, only now with the "latest" and 'lts" the url is a bit different, but this has nothing todo with the change that we now also have archive "installers"
just look at the release candidate post and look at the links...
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Re: Servoy 2019.06

Postby goldcougar » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:10 pm

Thanks. I think I got it sorted out.
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Re: Servoy 2019.06

Postby jcompagner » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:12 pm

a 2019.06.01 release is made specifically for a regression fix that the export (as .servoy file) could generate a wrong file where specific properties where not exported correctly
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