Issue about designing with Servoy 6.x re portals/tab panels

[jcarlos]

I like 6.1 for many things. But it really bothers me this warning: ‘For performance reasons on the internet/WAN it is strongly suggested to place no more than 3 portals/tab panels on a form.’

One of the good things about Servoy is precisely this thing about placing all these types of data grid views on a form.

I wonder if this warning is valid for web client solutions only. Or should I then change my development approach? What recommendations can you provide us in this regard? Any recorded webinar somewhere?

Thanks, Carlos

[john.allen]

I agree that I would like to get a better understanding of that warning. I haven't noticed any issues in speed or performance yet but would like to know what it is about in particular because this has never been part of a 'best practices' suggestions in the past to my recollection.

[david]

A few general observations:

- Tabs and portals tend to load more data.

- Tabs and portals can mean more calculation and summary fields.

- Initial load time in smart client is increased for each tab.

- Tab panels are Servoy's layout managers in web client. The more layout managers on a page, the more complex the rendering interactions. Minimizing the number of layout managers is a recommendation in most client-side UI frameworks. Example: anchoring lag. One tab panel you don't notice it but 3 tab panels inside each other -- it's a real issue.

- Each tab panel in web client increases the size of the browser output and number of resource loading instances.

It is interesting to note that smart and web client have different performance issues because of tab panels:

- Web client handles complex data faster because all that is done on the server before getting returned to the client. Smart client issues a query that goes back to the server for each summary field (an example) it encounters.

- Changing tabs in web client will always load the form for that tab. In smart client, form data is cached after first load.

- You can use many tab panels as layout managers in smart client without running into quirky layout issues. In web client, piling on layout managers can have unintended side effects.

With all this said, the attached screen shot has uses 12 tab panels and it runs great up to 50-60ms ping time. We could easily create a view with three tab panels that would be dog slow.

I can see why the warning is there but in no way is three tab panels a magical performance mark.

[jcarlos]

I am still really bothered by this warning.

It’s like having MySQL throwing a warning every time I perform a query where 3 or more tables are joined for a single query.

I truly understand what David explained. But he also understands the need for developing application/solutions with more than three portals/tab panels in a form. But to explain my concern, I need to re-post these two points that David raised:

You can use many tab panels as layout managers in smart client without running into quirky layout issues. In web client, piling on layout managers can have unintended side effects.

With all this said, the attached screen shot has uses 12 tab panels and it runs great up to 50-60ms ping time. We could easily create a view with three tab panels that would be dog slow.

I really think that Servoy shouldn’t have this warning as part of the warnings that will trigger from Servoy Developer when you are working on a standard/configuration/installation of Servoy Developer. Especially because there is a way to develop your application with “12 tab panels” and still runs it with a “great 50-60ms ping time.”

But, if Servoy really thinks that this warning is very important, Servoy should offer alternatives and best practices in this regard. For instance, should the CRUD buttons be placed in every form rather than in a single form which can be placed then as a tab panel all other forms? And if so, shouldn’t those CRUD buttons be part of the CSS file? Am I correct? Don't know. I am really new too all of these goodies of the new Servoy architecture.

But what about when you really need to show data from many tables, what should we do? Should then use HTML forms and stop using some of the wonderful goodies that Servoy offers?

As I said, I really like Servoy 6.1. It is quite amazing development platform application. I am just asking for new how-to-do guides on how to develop with "no more than 3 portals/tab panels" (as recommended in the warning) when you really need to show and edit data from many tables. The Docs are not enough. I think we need a guide, examples and a list of best practices in this regard.

Honestly, if I were as good of a developer as some of the stars in this forum, I’ll write this how-to-do guide myself.*

Best, Carlos


* "Stars in this forum," please do not take this message as if were indirectly asking you to do this. I think Servoy should. If I knew, however, I'll do just to give back to this community. You've already done a lot.

[david]

I am still really bothered by this warning.

I see you and raise you ~15,000 warnings

Screen shot 2012-08-16 at 11.59.36 PM.png (371.92 KiB) Viewed 5277 times

As I said, I really like Servoy 6.1. It is quite amazing development platform application. I am just asking for new how-to-do guides on how to develop with "no more than 3 portals/tab panels" (as recommended in the warning) when you really need to show and edit data from many tables. The Docs are not enough. I think we need a guide, examples and a list of best practices in this regard.

Honestly, if I were as good of a developer as some of the stars in this forum, I’ll write this how-to-do guide myself.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=12810&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=speed&start=15#p65469

This stuff doesn't come easy and no amount of documentation will help. Only solution is team program with "star" developers and absorb their knowledge/best practices. We do this all the time with Servoy developers....

[jcarlos]

David, thanks again!

Servoy, the solution that David showcased here has many more warnings than the one associated with the use of ‘more than 3 portals/tab panels on a form.’

The new Java Docs in Servoy is really good. Servoy now offers ways to write better/cleaner code. I “cleaned up” all of my solutions. I don’t have any more warnings, but the ones associated with the number of portals/tab panels in the forms. In part this is why I am bothered by this warning.

Also, as John Allen stated above, placing no more than 3 portals/tab panels on a form was never part of 'best practices' suggestions. This is something new, and I understand 'the why' because David clearly explained in his first post above.

But again, my point is that Servoy should:

1) Remove the feature that triggers this warning when you are working on a standard/configuration/installation of Servoy Developer. Especially because it seems that there are no noticeable issues in speed or performance of Servoy.

2) If not, Servoy should offer alternatives and best practices in this regard. I understand that only being a star developer made the best solutions. But there should be a how-to-do guide on how to develop with "no more than 3 portals/tab panels," especially while working with forms that are used for navigation and the ‘main’ forms that are used to hold related portals/tab panels.

Best,
Carlos

[ROCLASI]

Hi Carlos,

You can control the warning already:

Servoy 6.0.7 preferences

Screen Shot 2012-08-17 at 20.20.45.png (64.08 KiB) Viewed 5238 times

[jcarlos]

You can control the warning already

Thanks for the reply Robert. I know I can control all warnings -including this specific one.

I just don't want to be hiding warnings that has a good reason for showing. For example, if you are extremely obese, don't ever exercise and complain of knee pain and other pains, you don't want to take pain pills to 'hide' the pains (body warnings) because your body is telling that something is wrong and you need to fix the problem. Similarly, I just don't think it is right to ignore the warning here.

The 'many portals/tab panels warning' is there by default for a reason (maybe the reason that was explained by David in a post above). However, if Servoy does performance testing and finds out that more than 3 portals/tab panels in a form won't have a significant/marginal cost on performance, this warning should be set by default to 'ignore.' But perhaps Servoy already did the testing and has a good reason to set it as a 'warning.' If this is the case, Servoy should offer alternatives and best practices in this regard. Specially, because this thing about having various portals/tab panels on a form was not an issue but a feature of Servoy.

Anyway, this bothers me up to some extend. But Servoy has many more 'pros' than 'cons'; and if Servoy does nothing about it, I'll be fine with that.

Best, Carlos