Need Filemaker Like Status Area

Classic Servoy
1

Hi Guys:

I’ve got my test server up and running, and my boss is checking it out with me. He’s not a programmer, but is a Filemaker “Power User”.

I need to replicate the Status Bar functionality in Servoy as much as possible. I have a record count. What’s frustrating him is the inability to use the little scroll bar to move quickly through the data. It only loads 200 records at time. He needs to be able to jump around in a large record set pretty much randomly. Ie. to to the 100,000th record, scroll through a few records, then jump to the 200,000th record, scroll through a few. Jump to the end, scroll back a few records, etc.

How can I replicate this functionality in Servoy?

Thanks,
Lee Snover

2

look here:

http://forum.servoy.com/viewtopic.php?t=1643&start=0

3

HJK:
look here:

http://forum.servoy.com/viewtopic.php?t=1643&start=0

Harjo:

Thanks, I will check this over in detail.

Regards,
Lee Snover

4

leesnover:
Ie. to to the 100,000th record, scroll through a few records, then jump to the 200,000th record, scroll through a few. Jump to the end, scroll back a few records, etc.

If you look at the thread Harjo linked to we are still searching for people that can explain why exactly you would want to do this. Perhaps you can ask your ‘power user’ what exactly he is doing that he needs to jump from record 100,000 to 200,000 ?

5

Jan, I for one can explain you a little why you would do this.

Picture this: You have a set of 2000 records with customers or a set of 200000 articles and you want to find one without knowing the name. In that case you go browsing. Just like you would do with a box full of pictures when you want to find that one picture you can’t describe but the outline of the picture is in your head.

When you would use the default element to help you browsing you have the delay every time you are at the limit of the foundset size. Drag the bar again and voila the next 200 are available.
The same goes for a listview, at the end of the foundset you have a delay because the foundset has to be expanded.

Now, when you want to browse and you have the described delays the user is not able to browse intuitively and easy but has to be very patient. I for one don’t use the statusbar anywhere…

6

I’m afraid I still don’t get it. Do you randomly want to see random records? Or using a particular order? Both can be built with no significant loss of intereactivity, or is it something else? But what? When in record mode a user can only see one record at once so I don’t get why a user would suddenly be able to get his work done more efficient if he has the possibility to jump from record 100,000 to 200,000.

7

hmm, in case you talk about the default statusbar you are probably right.

In my example, a listview where one scrolls through to check a name (or whatever) must make it a little more clear (I hope)…

For me not a big deal though, this was just to clarify!

8

It is just a thing Filemaker users are used to.
My former FM customers are asking this the first time too.

If I ask them, why they want that, they can’t answer that exactly.
It think it is a feel of control, or something.

(One thing I will find handy, is to drag the controller at once to the last record, but that can be done in Servoy by other ways and that I think are FM-users used to do with the controller)

Just my thoughts.

9

jaleman:

leesnover:
Ie. to to the 100,000th record, scroll through a few records, then jump to the 200,000th record, scroll through a few. Jump to the end, scroll back a few records, etc.

If you look at the thread Harjo linked to we are still searching for people that can explain why exactly you would want to do this. Perhaps you can ask your ‘power user’ what exactly he is doing that he needs to jump from record 100,000 to 200,000 ?

Jan:

I didn’t want to get into that for fear you might just think I’m being a PITA, but since you asked…

In our case, we get vary varied data in. Specifically insurance claims data for long term and short term injuries. We never quite know what we are going to see in the records and in effect we do a random sample and start looking at characteristics of the records. They come in typically in chronological order over many years. Our people are very experienced and by examing a few records from each year, certain patterns will start to jump out. For these folks scrolling through the records is a very intuitive process, and you would be genuinely amazed at what they can gleen from the data just popping around in the database. Again, not to beat a dead horse, but this is a feature they have enjoyed and used in Filemaker for many years, and taking it away is akin to taking the bottle away from the baby.

Yes, we can develope more “sophisticated” sampleing techniques that would limit the found set, but honestly what they do is a very intuitive and subjective process. They may notice something scanning the first few dozen records for each year, then maybe they see nothing and move on to the next year, maybe they see a pattern, then continue moving through the current year to look at more records. When certain patterns stick out, they will then go in and do more refined queries and subtotaling to see if what they saw in the sample holds up in the database.

These are not programmers or technical people, but they gain immense insight simply by “flipping through the book” if you will, based on years of experience with similar data. I don’t think they could easily quantify what they are looking for, each circumstance is often quite different. They truly are “knowledge workers”. What they are able to discover through this review process is truly amazing. Trying to boil what they do down into a set of algorythms would be quite challenging, though we may try some day. ;-)

I’d love for you to be able to come spend a couple of days with us. It would be a great sharing experience. Maybe we are not “typical”, but I think many people do use Filemaker in this manner, and many of these folks will find this a limitation in Servoy. Again, I’m aware of why you have implemented things the way you have from a technical standpoint, and the limitations of a Java “client” with a server. But there are ways to work around the issue. I will have to come up with some strategies for handling this.

I did something similar in Omnis, which has many of the same contstraints as Servoy. What I did was build a scrollable index list, and then just let them scroll through the limited index and load the full record data only as they scrolled through the individual records. Servoy’s handling seems to be to always load the entire record as you jump through the set, which presents a great deal of overhead and slows things down.

If I could use a View, or a subset of a full table to build the primary form record, and control only loading the full record for the records they choose to “jump to” or “stop on”, I might be able to handle it a little more effectively. The in ability to use views is somewhat limiting. Again, I’m sure you have some techniques I might employ to get around this, but I have to learn them yet. ;-)

Sincerely,
Lee Snover

10

I’m afraid your post does not clear things up. If they want to see some random records (which is what i read from your post) you have many possibilities to put random selections into your foundset using sql. I’m not sure why sitting doing with your users for a couple of days can change that, having consulted on many IT projects (many insurance related) in the past my conclusion on the fact that if you can’t explain it you don’t need it only becomes firmer. Perhaps you can ask one of your actual users to explain what they really do jumping from record 100,000 to 200,000 with apparantly no reason. And maybe Filemaker is the better solution for them: after all it is THE knowledge worker database. Servoy, although suitable for knowledge workers and empowering them to build great applications is more a developer tool.

11

jaleman:
I’m afraid your post does not clear things up. If they want to see some random records (which is what i read from your post) you have many possibilities to put random selections into your foundset using sql. I’m not sure why sitting doing with your users for a couple of days can change that, having consulted on many IT projects (many insurance related) in the past my conclusion on the fact that if you can’t explain it you don’t need it only becomes firmer. Perhaps you can ask one of your actual users to explain what they really do jumping from record 100,000 to 200,000 with apparantly no reason. And maybe Filemaker is the better solution for them: after all it is THE knowledge worker database. Servoy, although suitable for knowledge workers and empowering them to build great applications is more a developer tool.

Jan:

The trick is to be able to go into the data at Random places and then be able to scroll freely through records at those Random starting points. 100,000 to 200,000 is just an example. They have a feel for what is in there by jumping around. It is not 100% Random, or it would be very easy to automate. As I said, I’m sure some method of automating what they are doing can be found, but it has to be unobtrusive and flexible.

You may have done quite a bit of insurance related work, but, our area is more akin to ANALYSIS OF insurance related work. There will definately be a continuing place for Filemaker with these folks, but there is a need for a product to handle the larger data sets. It’s the same folks using the system, so I have to try to blend the robustness of a SQL/Servoy solution with the ease of use of Filemaker. I have two distinct sets of users that are working with my application, and that’s what makes it quite challenging.

I understand there is no perfect tool. But I hope that the tools that are available can be improved to the point where the gaps in these products start to dissappear. I have been working in this industry in IT for almost 20 years now. I have kept my position and clients by attempting to understand the problems my customers have and done my best to give them what they tell me they need, even if I don’t always agree. Sometimes I can show them better ways to do things. Sometimes I have to trust that what they would like makes sense for them.

I am a developer at heart and lean towards better developer tools. My clients/users lean more towards end user friendly tools. My goal is to try to solve the problems and keep everyone as happy as possible. Servoy’s “Filemaker like” qualities are what makes it a compelling developer tool. I hope both sides of the equation can be exploited.

I’ll bring some sample data to training with me, and maybe it will make more sense, or at least maybe you can show me a better way to solve the problem. I’m always willing to learn.

Regards,
Lee Snover

12

What about implementing a Google-style search results list, with an additional Go To Record button allowing you to jump to a specific record far away from the current record?

13

swingman:
What about implementing a Google-style search results list, with an additional Go To Record button allowing you to jump to a specific record far away from the current record?

Christian:

I’m working on a more sophisticated approach. We tend to do things by Year, so if I can set up an interface that automatically does some “pre-summarization” by year and then allos drill down into essentially random records by year or even another level of summarization, I may be able to give them a workable interface in Servoy. I’ve done similar things in other Client Server apps. BUT, Servoy seems oriented towards working with entire records, (more like Filemaker) and does not make it as easy to deal with “parts” of records (aka Views). It’s a trade off between Servoy’s relatively simple and useful capabilities and a language that both forces and allows you to roll the data your own way.

I’m sure there are ways to deal with partial records and things that may act like views in Servoy, but I have not proceeded far enough into the product to know the best way.

In Omnis, I would simply build a list with my index values, and then allow the User to jump along the index. With large sets, I would do some “buffering” ala, Servoy’s 200 record buffer, but I had control over the buffer size. 200 seems somewhat arbitrary, it would be a good feature to allow this to be user specified. Some SQL Databases are more efficient wtih larger chunks or records through some interfaces. I don’t know what the specific pros and cons of JDBC are, so maybe there is something inherent to the 200 record set based on that?

I’m sure there will be a good solution, but I have to get a little further with my Servoy education. ;-)

Thanks!
Lee SNover

14

To Lee,

It’s just my opinion, but I’m sure Bob Cusick could do whatever Filemaker functionality your clients wanted to see in Servoy, to their little hearts content. Even make it look the same.

Usually he even tells you if you just ask him nice, but don’t tell him I said.

Hope this helps,

John Pollard