Survey General Comment

Classic Servoy
1

“Post all problems you find with Servoy here.”

If Servoy is so great, why are you using PHPBB for your support forum?

I don’t like the fact that Servoy requires a Java client in order to browse the solution. This ensures that I could never use Servoy for a site that is intended to be used by the broad base of users out there.

At least FileMaker Pro has instant web publishing… which despite its many limitations enables solutions that do not require a download.

[Come to think of it, doesn’t that earn FileMaker Pro a different placement on the ease of deployment/ease of development graph?]

2

and… now what… what do you want with this post?

And what about this:

This ensures that I could never use Servoy for a site that is intended to be used by the broad base of users out there

Servoy is not about using a site to browse your database/solution but about developing database solutions. The fact that Servoy relies on Java has never been an issue for me, my customers and my prospects.

Your post is more an issue you think you have with Servoy than an issue Servoy has. And it is certainly not a bug but more something that’s bugging you :-)

3

Servoy is not a tool for making webapps. Servoy is a tool and environment for deploying rich client applications. But with the features that html applications do have like zero deployment and upgrading (not counting one time install of the jvm if this isn’t installed already)

There are tons of html webapp ide’s out there where you can build those kind of things.

For example this forum is something you would build in html because it is a very simple application if you compare it with a rich client db application! For example it only has one real edit window (where i type this message in) And the rest are readonly/view screens.

4

A few points:

  1. To my thinking, zero deployment means going to a site and getting down to business. I encountered several errors the first time I went to the CRM database demo at demo.servoy.com, even though I already had the JVM installed. I did finally get it going, after resintalling JVM and passing through a few dialog boxes. Even if it works perfectly, this prevents using Servoy for any sort of external/public or general access site. [Which might be fine if you define your market purely within an intranet.]

  2. I found the CRM demo to be sluggish and nowhere near as “rich” as I would like to see. For example,

  • As I navigate through the interface I get a watch cursor every time I click a “new” button, and I can actually see the data populate into fields. This doesn’t seem as fast as a web page.

  • When I click “Customers” I’m asked to specify options for the report, and this is by clicking through multiple dialog boxes. One of them asks me to select a month – using numbers as a drop-down. A truly rich environment would coalesce all these report options into a single dialog box and have the nicety of using month names, not numbers.

Could be a limitation of the demo as designed, but then it’s not that compelling an example of a rich user interface.

  1. PHPBB is a perfect example of a relational database-driven application with the need for a rich interface.

  • You have users with profiles, access privileges, and documents that would benefit from rich text editing. (Do people really want to learn BBCode, or do they want to choose Bold and Italic from menus?)

  • Although it’s true the main data entry is a single text field, this need not be the case if you extend it a little (as many have done with PHPBB) to function as a knowledge base, blogging tool, messaging system, customer support, CRM, etc.

  • Whatever happened to the idea of an integrated experience in which I log into a site, see my prior orders, shopping cart, open support tickets, sales rep info, customized news, calendar, ad nauseum? PHPBB is just the bare stub of that kind of interactivity/intimacy.

  • As for multiple fields, consider how PHPBB behaves when searching for posts. Let’s not forget spell checking, multiple languages and skins. It may be a better idea to code it in HTML but the task is far more daunting to accomplish than the promise of Servoy.

If PHPBB is so simple, then it should by definition be a cinch for Servoy, and I enthusiastically extoll the virtues of eating one’s own dogfood.

  1. When it comes to designing a (rich) user interface around a relational database, end-to-end, I’d really like to know something that makes it as easy as FileMaker Pro or Servoy. I’m aware of Dreamweaver’s MySQL/PHP stuff but that is mostly about presentation, and doesn’t really make it very easy to wire up the database logic. It could be my limited awareness, but I think these two apps stand alone in this segment. If you do know of an application that will front-end to an SQL database and generate HTML/PHP code ala FileMaker, I’ll whip out my checkbook right now.

From the Servoy home page:

Servoy is an application development and deployment environment used to create and deploy user-interface applications. Servoy consists of a powerful GUI designer, is fully event-driven and scriptable through JavaScript to help you build and deploy your SQL database front-end applications much faster than in any other development environment.

In short, I think a message board is a quintessential example of a GUI-intensive front-end to a database. Building something like this should be part of the tutorials, honestly, and I’m surprised to see that Servoy is not up to the task.

5

1> yes we target intranets but with internet access. For example we ourself have a crm (not the crm you speak of in 2) that can be accessed by our intranet or wherever we are if there is internet). So with a servoy application you know the user base (which can be very big that doesn’t matter) but it is mostly a targetted audieance.

2> that crm demo is not a very good UI example. It was purely a demo example that demonstrates how to use things. We are currently working to rewrite it to also get a good UI example.
How things work by ui boxes is just how it is programmed. You can do anything you want. A webpage does a complete request. a servoy screen is always there. There is no request->response cycle of the complete ui. We have already tested it over GSM/GPRS and a complete app was very responsive even over that kind of lines.

PHPBB is not a perfect example, you can’t begin to compare it with the solutions i have seen now of the various customers. Mostly it isn’t even possible to do those things i have seen.

I personally hate html applications that are bigger then phpbb. Html isn’t made for this. Why are people trying to go back to terminals?? (the 80’s). Ofcourse if you are targetting a very specify release of a browser then it is doable to get some nice things currently.

4> look at VS.NET. But you need coding knowledge for some complexer things.

I don’t get youre last line what doesn’t servoy do? i could build this messageboard pretty easy in servoy. But purely for this kind of app it isn’t really needed.

6

As a current user of both FM and Servoy, I thought I’d throw in my two cents:

Zuidema,

From my experience, getting Servoy Client up and running isn’t any more difficult than, say, getting the free Flash Player or Quicktime to work on a web site. If you’ve run into an issue with that installation, perhaps you should be posting details of that, so that your issue (whether Servoy’s, or your machine’s, or your user’s or yours) can be addressed. I’ve had a hell of a time getting FMSA 7 up and running with IWP. Can I then assume that the product is completely unworkable? Of course not. It means I have (had) an issue to address. This forum is the place for that, and is at least as helpful as the FSA talk forum. Actually, that’s quite the understatement; when’s the last time a FileMaker engineer weighed in on one of your questions on FSA?

FileMaker does indeed have Instant Web Publishing. Have you actually used it? I’m not saying there’s not a place for it; I have a current client for whom I plan to set that up… but that client expects about ten users with about two or three access screens. That’s a pretty precise target audience. If they had any more than that, we’d definitely be going to CWP, or just using Servoy internally and something like Dreamweaver externally. IWP certainly couldn’t serve up something as “simple” as this forum.

This forum is on PHBB (which, btw, is a hell of a lot better than whatever kludge FSA Talk uses). Saying that Servoy needs to ‘eat its own dogfood’ for this is like saying that Microsoft should do all its accounting in Excel. It just represents a complete misunderstanding of Servoy’s role.

I find it amazing that you use the crm example as a reason for trashing Servoy, especially as you’re apparently coming from a FileMaker background. So the FM templates are as “rich” as you would like to see? Is Contacts.fp5 still serving your clients well? I suppose that you just hand Business Tracker.fp7 to your clients and the job is done?

I’ve worked with FileMaker since FM 2.0. When I started working with Servoy, I went back to being a newbie. That’s awfully frustrating. I did a little “venting” on the forum at the beginning, too. :roll: If you’re serious about serving larger client groups, with larger datasets, over broader networks, with more scalable, less redundant programming, then I hope you’ll stick with Servoy long enough to see the possibilities.

At least, learn enough about it to complain about it with a little more accuracy and insight. :wink:

7

From my experience, getting Servoy Client up and running isn’t any more difficult than, say, getting the free Flash Player or Quicktime to work on a web site.

Cain,

You’ve got to be kidding!

When a web site presents Flash content to a new user, a placeholder appears and the user is asked to install the Flash plugin from Macromedia. If the user clicks “Yes” then approximately 30 seconds later (broadband), the animation shows up without further interaction.

I happen to have spent the long weekend setting up my new computer so I was able to visit demo.servoy.com as a fresh user, starting from a newly loaded Windows XP SP-2 system.

It took about 9 minutes and I encountered 15 unique screens to complete the setup.

Thus, any comparison with Flash is ridiculous. (Who was decrying the lack of “accuracy” in posts here?)

The only “bug” I encountered this time was that midway through the process, it was supposed to automatically redirect me back to the original database page, but I had to in fact manually reload it. Thus, this 15-screen/9-minute scenario is the ideal “first time user experience” possible with Servoy.

When I made my original post, I must have had either an outdated Sun-brand Java engine, or a Microsoft VM, because I encountered additional difficulty and the process was even more convoluted. These are not “my” issues, they are Servoy’s.

FileMaker, and the PHP/MySQL solution used to power this message board system, requires zero end-user setup. Thus, technically, they are infinitely easier to access. My point is, one cannot even think of deploying a Servoy-based solution outside the corporate walls. In the days when companies are attempting to have ever tighter relationships with their customers, this seems to be a short-sighted approach that leads to multiple systems and the commensurate integration and maintenance issues with them.

FileMaker does indeed have Instant Web Publishing. Have you actually used it? … {snip} … IWP certainly couldn’t serve up something as “simple” as this forum.

Oh, I certainly have used IWP and I find it to be a rather impressive accomplishment, despite its many limitations. And now I am confused. Is a discussion forum too simple and example, or too complex of one? As for FileMaker IWP not up to the task of serving up a discussion forum, I may have to prove you wrong on that.

I find it amazing that you use the crm example as a reason for trashing Servoy, especially as you’re apparently coming from a FileMaker background. So the FM templates are as “rich” as you would like to see? Is Contacts.fp5 still serving your clients well? I suppose that you just hand Business Tracker.fp7 to your clients and the job is done?

What a red herring! I think anyone who’s looked at these FREE sample FileMaker templates realizes they are intended to be educational and not indicative of the full potential of FileMaker. However, since you brought them up, I’ll say they at least are pretty to look at, easy to use and understand – unlike the Servoy CRM demo site, which is practically inscrutable. If you want to show off your “powerful GUI designer” the much-maligned templates you mention do a much better job.

I did a little “venting” on the forum at the beginning, too. If you’re serious about serving larger client groups, with larger datasets, over broader networks, with more scalable, less redundant programming, then I hope you’ll stick with Servoy long enough to see the possibilities.

Sounds like you’re still doing a little venting when you twist my points in order to assert they are innaccurate, imperceptive, or not helpful.

I’ll restate them (succinctly) in case anyone has lost track through all the FUD and defensiveness:

  1. Servoy cannot be deployed outside a corporate network because its FTUE is FUBAR. In other words, it could possibly be used for patient records at a hospital, but not to power Amazon.com. Keep this in mind if you are developing a database that may be accessed outside the company one day.

  2. If Servoy is a powerful tool/environment for deploying rich client applications then the CRM example at demo.servoy.com fails at demonstrating this. GUI design is supposed to be a core strength of Servoy.

  3. A discussion forum is analogous to a CRM application. If Servoy wants to convince anyone they are up to the task, they should “eat their own dogfood” and use Servoy to build a discussion board that beats the pants off PHPBB. Earlier, jcompagner said he could build a message board “pretty easy” in Servoy. Why haven’t they?

8

Thus, this 15-screen/9-minute scenario is the ideal “first time user experience” possible with Servoy.

Faulty reasoning: your experience does not represent the ‘ideal’… It’s the worst experience I have ever heard of or had. How about some details that could lead to a fix for whatever set of circumstances led to that?

Regarding IWP, I’d be interested to see how robust a discussion forum would be that can only show five rows at a time.

And now I am confused. Is a discussion forum too simple and example, or too complex of one?

Neither. It’s not applicable. Servoy isn’t intended to be a web development tool, or to replace the browser. Why have users download even a 2MB program for something that displays and behaves just fine on the web?

I think anyone who’s looked at these FREE sample FileMaker templates realizes they are intended to be educational and not indicative of the full potential of FileMaker.

I would have thought the same of the samples that came with Servoy.

A discussion forum is analogous to a CRM application.

Um, no, not it isn’t. I’m not even going to try to explain that to you.

it could possibly be used for patient records at a hospital, but not to power Amazon.com.

Yup. That’s what it’s intended for. Thanks for warning us that Servoy is what it purports to be, and not what it never claimed to be.

Sounds like you’re still doing a little venting when you twist my points in order to assert they are innaccurate, imperceptive, or not helpful.

Sorry if I’ve come off that way, but consider your ‘points’: So far:

  1. You’ve complained that you had trouble connecting, without providing details so that anyone can try to make that experience better for you or others.
  2. You’ve also complained that Servoy isn’t the web publishing tool that you apparently think it should be. That isn’t likely to change; no more likely than FileMaker becoming a robust word processing program.
  3. You’ve complained that the crm example isn’t up to your standards, which may be true; however, I sincerely hope that the Servoy team devotes most of their time to enhancing the product for those of us actually using it, rather than working on what’s basically a marketing device.

Feel free to post some actual, actionable points and contribute to the discussion. There’s a whole forum for feature requests, and another for issues and bugs. Those posts are answered, either with clarification or action. If you just want to complain before even determining what Servoy is for, though, then this is my last response to you.

9

Zuidema,

The great thing about this forum is that everyone can “vent” or express their own passionate viewpoints. That’s what makes this forum (and product) so FUN to work with (IMHO). Here’s a couple of my own personal opinions:

zuidema:

  1. Servoy cannot be deployed outside a corporate network because its FTUE is FUBAR. In other words, it could possibly be used for patient records at a hospital, but not to power Amazon.com. Keep this in mind if you are developing a database that may be accessed outside the company one day.

Yep - as far as the public knows, right now, today - that is true. I would encourage you to check it out again mid to late January 2005. :D I assume you’re talking about the benefits of using a browser-based application. There is no doubt that browser-based applications have their place. If you’re Amazon, it’s a good idea to use a browser-based application. If you’re Amazon, you’re NOT using IWP either… :D

Also - it seems to me that you’re hinting that Servoy isn’t scalable. You can run as many concurrent clients as you have memory, database licenses, and network pipes. Yes, you can have 10,000 or 20,000 (or more) concurrent clients.

zuidema:
2) If Servoy is a powerful tool/environment for deploying rich client applications then the CRM example at demo.servoy.com fails at demonstrating this. GUI design is supposed to be a core strength of Servoy.

I totally agree! We’re working on that. BTW: If you come up with a good-looking demo application - we would love to post it as the demo application on demo.servoy.com. You can email it to me directly at bcusick@servoy.com.

zuidema:
3) A discussion forum is analogous to a CRM application. If Servoy wants to convince anyone they are up to the task, they should “eat their own dogfood” and use Servoy to build a discussion board that beats the pants off PHPBB. Earlier, jcompagner said he could build a message board “pretty easy” in Servoy. Why haven’t they?

Well… I don’t think that a discussion forum is analogous to a CRM application - in fact they are totally different. In a forum you have many threads with many contributors on many topics. In a CRM you have many areas of functionality (contacts, orders, activities, etc) with fewer input points. Regardless - I think your question is why doesn’t Servoy BV use Servoy for this forum. And the simple answer is: we use the right tool for the right job. There is no need to have a rich, connected, stateful client for a discussion forum. There is no added benefit. A HTML application is the right tool - because that’s all you need. And, since that’s the case - why re-invent the wheel when we can just use this PHP software?

We DO “drink our own champagne” - in that we have an internal application that runs the entire Servoy business. I use it every day from my office in Los Angeles while the server is in Amsterdam. The performance is great (almost as fast as if I had it installed on my local LAN).

Thanks for your honesty and passion when expressing your opinions!